Plan for Jeff Tunnell

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Keith Killilea   (Oct 13, 2005 at 17:41 GMT)

I like this new plan alot, sound directions and i look forward to see what is going to happen over the next year with this.

David \"Fulcrum\" Wyand   (Oct 13, 2005 at 17:43 GMT)   Resource Rating: 5

Greetings Jeff!

I was great to see you again at IGC. And this helping hand you're discussing will be a huge boost to those that realize they should take advantage of it.

- LightWave Dave

Dave D   (Oct 13, 2005 at 17:47 GMT)

I also love this idea. The biggest hurdle I have is artwork. Right now I am not in a position to hire an artist. But if the demo and storyline proves worthy enough, who knows, maybe it will atract the attention of GG and/or an artist.

Anton Bursch   (Oct 13, 2005 at 18:36 GMT)   Resource Rating: 5

This is the most exciting news that I have heard in a very long time!!! I can't wait to see what the community can accomplish with even more leadership and guidance from Jeff Tunnell and the Garage Games team!!!

I read posts and plans and listen in irc to programmers and artists who are amazing at what they do but need to be connected to each other to create the game that they DO have the ability to create. And I think that the ellusive part of making an indie game is the creation of a capable team. Sometimes I want to tell programmer x that they need to get together with artist a and b and project manager z. But who am I to do that? You know. I am so glad that you guys will be doing this. I think that this will make all the difference in the world.

This community keeps kicking more and more ass every day!!
Edited on Oct 14, 2005 06:50 GMT

Matthew Langley   (Oct 13, 2005 at 18:40 GMT)

This is very awesome, really gives indie devs an opportunity to get help, advice, and assistance in making a Torque game :)

Chris Labombard   (Oct 13, 2005 at 18:56 GMT)

I really could have used this a month or two ago... I went through 13 artist with Basic Bob (and I DO pay) ... and only managed to find 3 that were reliable.

I could have saved time and money if GG had hooked me up with a reliable artist.

Simon Love   (Oct 13, 2005 at 19:20 GMT)

Great incentive. Guidance is what most of us need in this stormy sea of hardcore development. And based on your brutal honesty (which I totally appreciate), this can only help developers churn out great games.

Happy to see you come back in such a positive role.
Really cool.

Gary Preston   (Oct 13, 2005 at 19:29 GMT)

I'm always on the lookout for additional contract programming work as I'm sure many others in the community are, so anything that helps link up community members to make that happen would be a very good thing imo. This sounds like a win-win situation for both GG and the GG Community, you can't get better ideas than that.

It'll be interesting to hear more about what you have planned to make the "tight ecosystem" a reality :)

Todd Pickens   (Oct 13, 2005 at 19:46 GMT)

Jeff,

It is really good to hear that Garage Games is moving in this direction.

I have an extensive background in the dev biz, but am now independent and sold on inde development for all the reason I got into the industry originally.

Your idea articulates the thoughts that have been bouncing around in my head the past few months and I am very interested in being involved.

Matt Vitelli   (Oct 13, 2005 at 20:32 GMT)

Great .plan. Good to hear about the future of Garage Games.

Vernon Finch   (Oct 13, 2005 at 21:02 GMT)

This is a great initiative. There is so much talent floating around, a good kick in the right direction will help immensely

varmint   (Oct 13, 2005 at 21:19 GMT)

Edited on Dec 06, 2005 17:05 GMT

Vashner   (Oct 13, 2005 at 21:24 GMT)

Yea I think there is a lot of potential in "telecommuting"... organizing game development groups over
long distances via internet tools. GG charges a project / access fee for using the project mgmt tools.

In return the high fee level "Gold Project" "Silver Project" "Basic".. with gold being like $1000 bucks you get
more support like calling Jeff at 3 am with a script problem (total humor haha).. anyways just random ideas.

Channa Langley   (Oct 13, 2005 at 22:13 GMT)

Wow very exciting and I am sure it will help a great deal as it is hard to find reliable people and the right resources on your own

Brett Fattori   (Oct 14, 2005 at 00:48 GMT)

Thanks, Jeff, for your encouraging words at IGC.

- Brett
Edited on Oct 14, 2005 00:48 GMT

Phil Carlisle   (Oct 14, 2005 at 01:57 GMT)

I was disappointed that I really didnt have a proper demo at the IGC. If we'd have got the MP together for the show, it would have been a damn sight better an experience than just flying around strafing some non-shootable ships..

The thing I've picked up this year has been that even though I'm desperate to finish this game, even though it will really be a step ahead of any other game of its type. Generally, the market right now isnt likely to be very conducive to the game.

Right now, the biggest thing is to get some smaller, lighter games out there. But what about the future for games like Air Ace? I mean, if ESD is going to just connect with "casual" games, where does the future of all those lost genre's lie? Are dogfighting games a thing of the past? Are tank based tactical games dead? Do helicopter sims not have any future?

The slightly sad thing is that the "casual" games are viable en-masse because you can literally apply a scatter-gun effect and ship lots of them. The usual casual publisher thing of always keeping new games on the sales page *isnt that big fish policy??*

So we start turning out these puzzle games and bubble poppers and the usual casual game fluff, but what about the more passionate games from genres now pretty much dead?

I kind of hope that one of the things GG can help us do in the coming years, is to provide a means for us to develop and distribute on a larger scale, those kind of games where traditional publishing has died. Sure the low hanging fruit right now is match tree puzzlers etc.. but what of all the Red Baron style games? Where do those fit in? Nobody at real, or popcap or whoever are going to champion THAT kind of game... I'm hoping that GG is at least going provide an outlet for these kinds of games.

I'm happy to make the casual games to build the business, but at what point does that market become unviable? When does EA hop in and simply buy out the whole marketplace? What then?

Anyway, its great to see you back and I know that all your advice is 100% gold. Its just kind of hard to hear it sometimes when youre passionate about something ;)

Robert Stewart   (Oct 14, 2005 at 03:46 GMT)

Awesome, I really think GarageGames has to move forward in this direction. The competition is building and many great games are been pumped out of Game Engines that are not nearly as complete or well written as TGE. Well GL

Jeff Tunnell   (Oct 14, 2005 at 06:16 GMT)

@Phil,

Not once did I tell everybody to just make casual games. I do not think for a minute that all of the old categories are going away. Like we discussed, I totally believe that there are a lot of people that still want to play some of the old genres like flight sims, sub sims, naval sims, etc. But, making the game will be the easy part. You will need to have a business model if you want to make money from your product. Launching a multi-player, for pay product without building up an audience is a sure way to fail in today's market. It would not matter if your game was a simulation or a big mecha game or a vector graphics multi-player top down arcade (I think you can read into these descriptions and figure out that I am speaking from experience). On the bright side, look at the huge adoption of BlockLand. There are people out there that want to play games in genres other than casual. In fact, the usual suspects of Marble Blast, Think Tanks, and Orbz are not casual games and have not exactly taken the casual cahnnels by storm, but all of those games have done very well.

GG will not be concentrating just on casual games, but we will take advantage of the fact that, at this moment in time, it is a good place to make some good, fun games, and maybe make some money. The fact that the mobile phone market is backing up the casual game market makes it even more enticing. However, we also like to make games that are a little more in-depth, so we will be making some games that are not right for the casual channel, but are instead targeted at our own GG audience as well as consoles and handhelds.

Please note that we willnot be making casual games by holding our nose and making a game just to make money. I actually enjoy the smaller games (look at some of the games that I have made in the past), and look forward to creating some kick ass products. If you don't believe in the market or don't like the games, I think it would be an absolute waste of your time to try to make one.

Anton Bursch   (Oct 14, 2005 at 06:49 GMT)   Resource Rating: 5

@Phil

I know that I sure didn't join this community to make puzzle games! I am making one but I started it to gain practical experience managing the entire development of a game from start to finish. It is a simple inexpensive game for me to cut my teeth on. I like playing it but I don't sit up late at night drinking caffine talking to friends about how cool it would be to make a puzzle game. I stay up talking to friends about how cool it would be to make a game out of my own imagination. My lost and found and then lost and found genre is sword fighting games. I still want to play a 3rd person Robin Hood game. There will always be a place for the lost and found game genres. And thank God that people like you are there to make them. I ain't the only one salivating to buy the completed pimped out TSE Air Ace game! We want it now! So hurry up and make it for us!!!

For the record... puzzle games are games too and I am not trying to say that they... ah hell, who am I kidding. They are fun as hell but you all know.

Todd Pickens   (Oct 14, 2005 at 07:27 GMT)

Not sure where I am going with this, its late and I need sleep, but the posting has me all fired up so here goes.

Pack man was a great game. If you made it today, it would be a "casual game" for your phone, and I think it would be just as addictive.

Quake..and for that matter most of the knock offs that followed it were little more than Pac-man underneath it all.

You run around gobbling up power ups, and learning the best pattern through the level/maze to set the new speed record. Get the right power up and your are invulnerable and can go eat the ghost ..err..shoot the bad guys with impunity, hop through the teleporter and pop up on the other side of the maze! Keep gobbling up the power ups..waka waka waka waka waka waka...

The producer for the first PC I ever worked on is now...7-8 years later, working at Nokia with their mobile games. There is a lot happening with mobile games, and as the tech grows (specifically battery life), the potential for great games grows. Last time I spoke to him he was loving it. Good money, fun work, good future for growth.

Hell, I could play devils advocate here and say that "casual games" should be our mantra. Isn't it companies like EA that we have to blame for the state of things today?...push the tech, double the budget, triple the team, cut the developers profit, unwritten but mandatory 70-80 hour work weeks. Crap in a box, make sequel #2, sequel #3...of the same hack movie/IP, forget originality, market the hell out of it and the fools will buy it!

Casual games are a perfect proving ground for original thought and design. And Jeff you are dead right, casual games are a good thing..a smart thing right now.

Make a good casual game and learn a lot, and yes perhaps even make some money while your at it. Hell, make ten, then take what you have learned and make "that game", the one that came form playing a thousand other games then putting down the control while saying "if it just had (insert feature here)", or "wouldn't it be awesome if.."

I don't know about you, but I have been making games since I was 5. It was Alligators and lava (while hopping from one black tile in the grocery store to the next), then green army men in the front lawn with sling shots for artillery. And eventually pen and paper RPGs. The rest is history.

You want to make a game? I hope you do it because you love it, and because you can't not do it.

We may be making games, but take it seriously. Its more than pixels and numbers.


...that said, I am working on the Pirate game I always wanted to play :O)
Edited on Oct 14, 2005 16:07 GMT

Anton Bursch   (Oct 14, 2005 at 07:37 GMT)   Resource Rating: 5

@Todd

Well said.

Pirate games... swashbuckling, sailing, looting, peglegs, parots and... lime disease. Sounds like my kind of game!!

Prairie Games   (Oct 14, 2005 at 08:09 GMT)

@Jeff: MoM is going to be a monster of an indie title. There is simply no other game with it's feature set. None. We've got (massively) single player, multiplayer, and are even leasing servers to expand it into no-monthly-fee MMORPG territory. We've got OSX and Windows. We've got an integrated patching system. We've got modding. We've got user run persistent worlds and a match making server... We have a ton of content.... We have....

I'm glad you are back. I really hope you get a chance to check out the game. I'll have a "golden" beta installer up within a couple days.

Nick Zafiris   (Oct 14, 2005 at 09:12 GMT)

Sounds like a great idea Jeff! I would really like to know some more details though about how you are going to help us "fill in the blanks" to find artists/programmers, find funding, help with design ideas, strategy, etc. like you mentioned. Will there be any restrictions or fees or will there be a requirement to publish through GarageGames?

I like the idea but probably won't send you an email until we have our website up and have done a proper announcement of our project. Hopefully in the next month.

Nick

Bryan Edds   (Oct 14, 2005 at 12:28 GMT)   Resource Rating: 5

Step 1: Make game.
Step 2: ???
Step 3: Profit!

While it's kind of silly, it is the way a lot of developers run their companies. Helping people make a good business model will fill in step 2, and is the only way to actually get to step three.

That being said, the first and foremost thing indies need is investment capital. This is one of the things that is needed to even finish step 1. It's extremely difficult working 40 hours a week at some totally unrelated job and having barely enough money leftover to contract 1 other person. It makes it so much more difficult to finish a casual game that most people just aren't willing to do it, and those who do do it take 3 to 4 times as long to make it.

So yeah, investment capital. That'd be a big help. If there's any way the GG could help connect indies with that (assuming the indies has presented a great prototype or demo), that'd be a great boon.

At least that's what I figure anyways.

Brett Fattori   (Oct 14, 2005 at 13:57 GMT)

@Phil: I hear ya on the "having a demo" for IGC. Everyone asked me "Where's dRacer??" when I was in conversation with them. It's hard to keep telling everyone, it's hard to tell a difference and that it wasn't in a shape to show it. A lot of people gave me the response "So what?! It was awesome last year, it can only be more awesome." I felt like I was walking around just taking up space, at times. But I was among friends, and seeing everything they were producing made me feel better. I saw Air Ace and was blown away by how much fun flying and strafing could be. Realm Wars 2 was a ton of fun, and in the course of 10 minutes we had all figured out strategy to get past the quirks. My point is, that even though I didn't personally have anything to show anyone (although, secretly I did -- it was in a hidden directory on the machine just to the left of the entrance as you came in) I still had fun. It was a chance to just shoot the breeze with everyone and not be focused on the game. Next year, dRacer is gonna OWN IGC! Well, except that Air Ace and Realm Wars 2 are going to be there... hrmm, I see a good year ahead for Independent Games Developers...

- Brett

Ajari Wilson   (Oct 14, 2005 at 18:22 GMT)

I personally like the idea. I have the same concerns as Nick though. I'm looking forward to hearing more about this.
-Ajari-

Phil Carlisle   (Oct 15, 2005 at 01:20 GMT)

Jeff, I still see that the majority of the sales space is still thinking "casual" in terms of the puzzle variety.. cheap download cheap turnover and easy sale into the soccer mom demographic.

My point being that essentially GG are the *ONLY* ESD publisher I know of that even consider the likes of Air Ace, Realmwars etc.

But yeah, I agree completely that its a huge uphill battle to try and launch a multiplayer only game without a big userbase already there.. I dont have an answer there either.

But I do appreciate the support in terms of actually encouraging us to actually MAKE these kind of games. There for sure is still a niche to fill there, but I honestly havent got a 100% clear plan on how to reach them.

But I do see that the "casual" game, like Diner Dash, have a clear route to market.. making a high enough quality polished "puzzle/arcade" game with a small download is really the no-brainer route right now.. Even more than the likes of say Orbz or whatever maybe.

I guess my problem is that when I think of a game I'd love to make, I always think back to games like Red Baron, LHX, M1 Tank Platoon etc... those type of games...

But as you mentioned before, those are actually the AAA titles of thier era.. which means they are probably too big for my team anyway.

Anyway, there are some "causual delivery" games that I DO want to make, so I'll see if I can get those under way..

I just hate coming to IGC every year and missing out on the opportunity to actually SELL something :) So my motivation is really just wanting to get games shipped. Its hellish frustrating.

Jeff Tunnell   (Oct 15, 2005 at 01:46 GMT)

@Nick and Ajari:

I don't think this effort will ever be cast in stone with a website, set rules, etc. It is much more fluid than that. It's kind of funny that the people that I want to work with are already flooding my email box.

@Brian Edds: Don't misread my statement about funding. There is no "investment capital". From time to time, we may provide capital to fill in the blanks for some art, music, production, etc. to finish up promising products, or test prototypes, or even complete key code bases that we feel would be important to making certain types of games. I am not of the opinion that funding is the biggest missing part of the equation. I think that making games is much more like making music than making movies. If I'm right, then how many rock bands do you see get funding before they are great?

There are companies now that are providing money in the downloadable space. They are acting much more like traditional publishers, ownign the IP, and taking a much bigger cut of the royalties. We have little interest in acting the traditional way. Anybody in this community has access to those people, and we wish you great success if you choose to use them.

-Jeff
Edited on Oct 15, 2005 01:47 GMT

Bryan Edds   (Oct 15, 2005 at 02:21 GMT)   Resource Rating: 5

Hmm... I think I'd rather be published by GG, even if there isn't any investment capital. I have a hell of a lot more confidence GG than the traditional publishing route any day.

Media @ KrabbitSoft Studios Inc.   (Oct 15, 2005 at 02:33 GMT)

Edited on Dec 06, 2005 17:24 GMT

David Loomis   (Oct 15, 2005 at 04:06 GMT)

While I wouldn't say that this could *save* Gearo the Hero, it would certainly see his story told alot sooner. : )

Jeff Tunnell   (Oct 15, 2005 at 04:44 GMT)

@David: Gearo is one ofthe more interesting games that has shown up in the GG community. Please don't give up.

@Josh: I agree with you, MoM will be one of the bigger Indie stories for 2006.

David Loomis   (Oct 15, 2005 at 21:25 GMT)

Exactly. We haven't given up... we've just been rethinking our strategies. Which is why I said what I said. Gearo will get made somehow, I'll see to that. I just thought a sort of game creation "match-making" service could alleviate some of our staffing problems!

Jason "nuvem" Kozak   (Oct 17, 2005 at 02:48 GMT)

Great idea! Too bad turn-based games aren't really TGE's forte :P

Shon Gale   (Oct 19, 2005 at 14:28 GMT)

Jeff your plan is phenomenal. We at ATOMIX Productions will be in contact very soon with our concepts. I regularly come to Eugene, about once a month to visit our business associate who manages money and other sundry stuff for us. No sales tax in Oregon, so we process and ship from Eugene. We only do Research and Development in California. (Still no sales tax) Anyhoo we would love to get together and figure out how to discuss our projects with you on the QT. Love to hear more about your plan.
Shon

Gonzo T. Clown   (Oct 27, 2005 at 02:12 GMT)

"then how many rock bands do you see get funding before they are great?"

If you have seen them at all, chances are someone funded them. This entire conversation is quite interesting to say the least.

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