Enhanced Collision DLL Pack now NOT on sale

Submit your own resources!

A   (Dec 19, 2005 at 12:04 GMT)

If you're creating your own build with the provided .dll and .lib files to test your game, please disregard the merge section:



The dynamic.cc and .h files are not provided with the demo.

Stefan Beffy Moises   (Dec 19, 2005 at 12:28 GMT)

Hey, pretty cool demo!
What about vehicle-vehicle collisions, are those improved, also?
What about networking? Does this work in multiplayer?

Michael Cozzolino   (Dec 19, 2005 at 15:35 GMT)

Defintately going to try this out.

Jaimi McEntire   (Dec 19, 2005 at 16:44 GMT)

Does the source come with purchase?

Kirby Webber   (Dec 19, 2005 at 16:57 GMT)

^ What he said - we're all source junkies around here.

Also, providing this al works with the networking code, etc., you might talk with GG about providing this as an add-on ala Torque Lighting Kit.

~ Just a thought =)

A   (Dec 19, 2005 at 16:57 GMT)

Consider this pack as enhanced collision 'lite' and only available for Windows platform. Network is fully supported. There are additional changes required for better vehicle response, and I'll provide that after the purchase.

Also included in the enhCollision.rar is a set of instructions on how to merge the changes to create your own build. No source will be available with this purchase.

Enjoy.

Tom Bampton   (Dec 19, 2005 at 17:29 GMT)

Perhaps I'm blind, but you dont seem to specify pricing anywhere. Perhaps you do in the demo, but the fact that it's single platform and you dont provide source means theres no point in even checking out the demo.

Trying to sell something to this community, where every other pack for sale includes source, makes this seem kind of strange. The fact you've built it on, as far as i can tell, cross platform components makes it even weirder ... if you provided source, it would more then likely be possible for someone to get it to work on the other platforms.

T.

Jaimi McEntire   (Dec 19, 2005 at 19:20 GMT)

Akio - this would be much more attractive to me with source. If you want the reasons:

1. peace of mind - So if you decide to stop supporting it, I have at least a rats chance of fixing bugs or making enhancements.
2. Other platforms - MAC and Win64.
3. Ability to change compilers without regenerating import lib or writing the code to manually load DLL.

It's your product (obviously) - just trying to let you know what would make me consider purchasing it.

A   (Dec 19, 2005 at 20:04 GMT)

All: removed the pack demo as per request by GG staff. Starter.racing is still available.

Adrian Tysoe   (Dec 19, 2005 at 20:24 GMT)

ah, damn that sucks. Was getting all excited for a minute. Well done though.

Brian McGavin   (Dec 19, 2005 at 20:39 GMT)

Akio - I am very interested in your product, but without source code I am very very hesitant. I agree with what Jaimi said and I would add.

4. If bug fixes are released for v1.4 of Torque or a new version of Torque comes out. The code could easily break.
5. Your customers can help point out mistakes and help you make improvements.

Also I grabbed your code and I think you had a mistake in your example code.
ehconvex.h should have needs to define InteriorMapConvexType in enum ConvexType
Edited on Dec 19, 2005 20:40 GMT

Jeremy Alessi   (Dec 19, 2005 at 21:41 GMT)

This works very well in the game. It's much faster than the typical rigid body mod. However, the rigid bodies do not seem to be affected by gravity unless they've been involved in a collision ... which I suppose could be ok so long as you design stacks of them well. That's what I really wanted to get out of such a thing. Also, why can't you include the source code and make it cross platform? You really need to come through all the way on this. It's a good pack and one that Garage Games would probably publish if you included source and got it working cross platform.

A   (Dec 20, 2005 at 00:08 GMT)

Here is the bad news. I was just informed that I cannot sell this, so please disregard this as it has become a non-sellable good.
Good news is that I will post free libraries for Win and Mac platforms on a later date and you can use it however you like.

James Laker (BurNinG)   (Dec 20, 2005 at 06:55 GMT)

May I ask why you cannot sell it?

A   (Dec 20, 2005 at 07:03 GMT)

Because I was told

Quote:

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selling or distributing derivative engine enhancements isn't authorized even with a commercial license

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James Laker (BurNinG)   (Dec 20, 2005 at 07:07 GMT)

Interesting... But i'm just gonna leave it at that.

A   (Dec 20, 2005 at 07:11 GMT)

Hmm, now that I've reread the quote, I guess I can't distribute the free stuff either, hehe. So much for that.

Jeremy Alessi   (Dec 20, 2005 at 07:11 GMT)

Can't you just post it as a resource? There are tons of engine enhancements. If you want to sell it ... wouldn't Garage Games publish it?

James Laker (BurNinG)   (Dec 20, 2005 at 07:26 GMT)

I don't get it... Isn't the Lighting Pack also a "Derivate engine enhancement" with some added features, also called enhancements... Like this enhanced collision "pack".

Note to all Lightning Pack Defenders:
Not trying to pick on Lightning pack here though... It's apparently awesome!

Jeremy Alessi   (Dec 20, 2005 at 07:42 GMT)

I think that Garage Games must publish it ... but still this would be a great addition for publication. The only thing I can think of is that they are already planning a physics addition and don't need this ... well if they rejected Akio that is.

Jorgen Ewelonn   (Dec 20, 2005 at 08:22 GMT)

Akios comment really made me think:

Quote:

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Hmm, now that I've reread the quote, I guess I can't distribute the free stuff either, hehe. So much for that.

---

then I reread the licens:

Quote:

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(c) Licensee may not: (i) create any derivative works of the Engine, including translations or localizations, other than the Games; (ii) reverse engineer, or otherwise attempt to derive the algorithms for the Engine

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Akio is right.
I'm no lawyer but that basically deems most resources illegal as I see it...

Any official comment ?

Just to clarify and as a possible flamewar prevention measure, I am not trying to bash the product here, merely asking a question regarding the above quote from the license and its impact on additions to the engine wich is based on code originally written by the licensors (GG).

[edit]correction regarding point of origin[edit]
Edited on Dec 20, 2005 08:27 GMT

James Laker (BurNinG)   (Dec 20, 2005 at 08:35 GMT)

Quote:

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(c) Licensee may not: (i) create any derivative works of the Engine, including translations or localizations, other than the Games; (ii) reverse engineer, or otherwise attempt to derive the algorithms for the Engine

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translates to

Quote:

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(c) Licensee can't: (i) do sh1t unless we say so; (ii) use the code because you licensee has the source, which means it's already reversed engineered. (iii) Battle us in court because we have a License Agreement that bans everything, we're just not bothered until you step on our toes.

---

:-P (I meant that in a good sense as a joke... not flaming GG)

Jorgen Ewelonn   (Dec 20, 2005 at 09:40 GMT)

Burning, even tough meant as a joke I don't think your translation is a 100% accurate, we are still entitled to create games with the code.

I am under the impression that the license was written this way to avoid deritive work (including parts of original source code) being sold to non-licensees, which is obvious but leaves some room for misunderstanding.

As we stand today, every resource (deritive work) is moderated (and needs to be approved by the Licensor) before release. This could be reflected in the license to avoid situations like this one again.

James Laker (BurNinG)   (Dec 20, 2005 at 14:15 GMT)

It's like saying...

Here's a pile of wood all cut into the right sizes to make a house...
You can cut some out there... and add some there and sell the house,
but you can't sell the wood for fire!

A   (Dec 20, 2005 at 15:31 GMT)

I respect what GG is doing and they have the rights to protect their products. What I've purchased was a license to use their product, and as a licensee, I will follow the rules and restrictions as not to violate anything in the agreement.

Ray Noolness Gebhardt   (Dec 20, 2005 at 17:22 GMT)

If you post the code as a resource on Garage Games, it is completely okay to do. There are already a few ODE physics integration resources on Garage Games. I have also posted resources that implemented engine enhancements.

Quote:

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"...selling or distributing derivative engine enhancements isn't authorized even with a commercial license..."

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In the case of posting your code as a resource, Garage Games is actually distributing your code. Resources are also moderated / authorized by Garage Games, before the general public may access them. You are not breaking the EULA in any way by posting a resource.

David Tiernan   (Dec 20, 2005 at 17:25 GMT)

Perhaps you could work to license it to them to implement into the engine? Still allowing the changes to occur and since the changes come from them it shouldn't be any EULA issues. Then everyone would benefit as it could be released in the next interim engine release.

Just a thought, I really appreciate the work you have done and have often referred people asking about collision and vehicle issues to do a search for your threads as they have been enlightening.

Jorgen Ewelonn   (Dec 20, 2005 at 17:46 GMT)

Quote:

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In the case of posting your code as a resource, Garage Games is actually distributing your code.

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Well, that sort of made sense .. good point there Ray.

Michael Cozzolino   (Dec 20, 2005 at 18:42 GMT)

Hmm disappointing. I was really looking forward to this.

A   (Dec 20, 2005 at 18:59 GMT)

Let me point out that as a commercial licensee and if you have TGE SDK license, I can be hired to write or modiy your code and create libraries for your game:)

Josh Williams   (Dec 20, 2005 at 19:57 GMT)

Just to clear the air here guys, what was meant in the quote above is that you can't make a derivative game-making product from Torque. For example, you can't wrap Torque in a binary and then sell your add on. That'd let anybody create a binary version of Torque, wrap it up, and start selling it as, say, MyGameMakerProduct. This isn't the only example of what isn't allowed by the EULAs, but it demonstrates the overall point.

I hope that thinking it through like that, you can see why it is necessary (and actually good) that the EULA has this kind of protection. Also of course please know that we always want to work with folks to create products that are based on the engine. Witness Melv and T2D, John Kabus and the Lighting Kit, Dave Wyand and TST Pro, and some others to come next year. :) We are obviously open to making exceptions when and where it makes sense to do so, after talking it through with the developer of a product.

To note as well for folks that are interested in Akio's enhanced collisions and in physics in general... we have some very cool projects going on here internally regarding physics, which we aren't quite ready to talk about in public yet. And we're also hoping to work with Akio to make his project available via appropriate means, and hopefully even integrate and work well with the internal collision and physics projects we have going on here.
Edited on Dec 20, 2005 20:04 GMT

A   (Dec 20, 2005 at 20:01 GMT)

Thanks for your comments Josh. We have discussed some of your plans in our emails, but I didn't think is was my place to repeat them publicly.

Josh Williams   (Dec 20, 2005 at 20:05 GMT)

Thanks Akio. :) All, we will be talking about this stuff more after the new year, once we get finished with some of our existing dev work!
Edited on Dec 20, 2005 20:05 GMT

David Tiernan   (Dec 20, 2005 at 20:06 GMT)

I am glad to hear that it isn't a complete shut out and that GG is working with him, I feel the physics and audio are long overdue for a re-vamp due to some of thier issues. Overall though you can't complain for what you get for a license.

Akio I am working for a game project that is commercial (with commercial licensing) and after the holidays when we really gear up will be contacting you to see where this is going.

Andrew Hull   (Dec 20, 2005 at 21:42 GMT)

@Akio

What are your rates for hire??? :-)

Michael Cozzolino   (Dec 21, 2005 at 13:23 GMT)

yay I'm glad that GG's is working with Akio and plan on doing stuff internally with physics "enhancements". I'm currently busy with my "real" job but was prototyping a game that has some physics needs. I may be able to just use RigidShape. I'm prototyping with it.

BrokeAss Games   (Dec 27, 2005 at 15:11 GMT)

Damn,
I had a little money left from xmas and was coming to pick that up.
That's what I get for waiting.
Guess I got Grinched.

Ari
Edited on Dec 27, 2005 15:12 GMT

A   (Dec 28, 2005 at 17:32 GMT)

Just so everyone knows, I had no intentions of violating any agreement stated in the EULA. I was under the impression that permission to release this particular enhancement code was already granted, as stated in www.garagegames.com/mg/forums/result.thread.php?qt=28247 by J.Williams.

Quote:

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As for Akio's work in particular, it seems really solid to me from what I can see so far. We'd be glad to work with him on an ODE or physics SDK project, but that doesn't mean we want to stifle other projects, or that we want to try to impede Akio's progress or release on his own.

---

Edited on Dec 28, 2005 17:33 GMT

Treb Connell (formerlyMasterTreb   (Dec 30, 2005 at 21:27 GMT)

you could perhaps get GG's permission to sell it in a content pack couldn't you or release it as a resource?

BigPapa   (Jun 06, 2006 at 14:36 GMT)

Bump! Just curious about the status of this. Any news?

Ron Nelson   (Jan 09, 2007 at 11:58 GMT)

Hi Akio,

Is there anyway you would consider releasing this as a resource. I know that there where issues with you being able to sell it, but it would be a terrible loss to the community to not be able to have this.
Edited on Jan 17, 2007 22:05 GMT

Ron Nelson   (Nov 02, 2007 at 05:39 GMT)

Akio I am hoping this gets to you since I see you did check in back in September. Several people have tried to accomplish fixes based upon just making this engine work and it has failed.

Please consider either releasing your code, or give a price that it would take for you to modify ours so it works with your ODE integration.

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