Indie First Person Shooter

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Vashner   (Nov 05, 2007 at 03:05 GMT)   Resource Rating: 5

There is some kind of voodoo where suits think that FPS shooters can't be role playing mmo's. Except for a few growing exceptions.

It's all about the food. No chef no real massive online combat realism. (reference to my fights with SOE over putting food in planetside). :)

All you need is extended torque with mmo middleware and db backend. Then it needs to be client aware projectile system. Add msg packet and 3d content. Microwave for 20 minutes.

Ben Immel   (Nov 05, 2007 at 05:08 GMT)

You know, I love that idea actually. I toyed around with an idea for a game where you play a superhero, going after criminals who get off without a thought from court, where you hunt them down. Didnt think that it would be a good idea for a super hero (super including batman types who use technology). Id buy, play, and support your idea.

Chris \"C2\" Byars   (Nov 05, 2007 at 05:28 GMT)

Lol that would be awesome.

Jonathon Stevens   (Nov 05, 2007 at 13:24 GMT)

reminds me of 'the punisher', which is a video game as well.

Simon Love   (Nov 05, 2007 at 14:40 GMT)

I think if it was made with realistic visuals, it is guaranteed to raise much debate over the media. Which is always good for free publicity, and giving bored housewives a new reason to hate video games :)

Cartoonish visuals might somewhat dilute the harsh reality of the subject matter.

In any case, I doubt such a venture would attract non-gamers to it.

Just my thoughts :)

James Laker (BurNinG)   (Nov 05, 2007 at 18:41 GMT)

I agree with Simon... make it harsh and raw. Enough so to stir up some fiery debates.

Aaron e   (Nov 05, 2007 at 19:11 GMT)

Sin City style visuals would work very well for the subject matter I think. This game shows it off in Torque pretty well.

Vashner   (Nov 05, 2007 at 20:11 GMT)   Resource Rating: 5

3d realms caved in and took out Duke's original lines like "Gonna rip em a new one" and the like. They also took out "your face, your ass, what's the difference?". lol..

Joshua Dallman   (Nov 05, 2007 at 23:19 GMT)

Make a game, not a spectacle. If you really care about the issues there are better ways to address them than an exploitative shooter.

Chris Calef   (Nov 05, 2007 at 23:40 GMT)

This sounds like a great idea to me, Josh, why shouldn't a game be a political spectacle? And while we're at it, what exactly are those "better ways" you speak of? :-)

John McArthur   (Nov 06, 2007 at 00:04 GMT)

LOL, and here I thought you actually had a creative game coming Anton. So anyways, you decided to bring up a serious issue and you talk about it seriously, but then you revert to carnage as a solution? Great job! What other issues should be solved with mowing down people? As for releasing your idea, isnt there a game already called Postal? ;P

Anyways, glad to see at least someone else (Joshua) thinks theres better ways then just killing everyone to inform & educate about problems and solutions.

Trenton Shaffer   (Nov 06, 2007 at 01:08 GMT)

Good concept and it has been used slightly in a few games. One of the games is Oblivion. Certain towns, caves, etc., have slaves in them. You could always just leave them be. But you can also set them free many ways; stealing a key, picking a lock, killing people, and so on. Good times! :)

Anton Bursch   (Nov 06, 2007 at 02:36 GMT)

I wrote this blog to talk about the issues... not to talk about an actual game idea.

There are widespread horrors commited against defenseless people in this world. The people who should be championing the cause of the victims of these real atrocities are instead spending their efforts attacking fantasy first person shooters.

The answer to violence and crime is not to pretend equally violent and criminal vengeance, obviously.

I am writing blogs with questions that I do not want to give answers for, because I want to promote a discussion among fellow indie developers, not try to push my opinions.

Vashner   (Nov 06, 2007 at 06:35 GMT)   Resource Rating: 5

Sorry man I totally missed the boat. Guess i'll actually read instead of speed read. Uh looking at the title and last paragraph. Anyway I see the point now.

Aaron e   (Nov 06, 2007 at 13:53 GMT)

If games are ever going to be taken as seriously as the film industry, then significant games will need to address tough subjects in a variety of ways. Everything from a thoughtful, sensitive approach (Pan's Labyrinth, Crash, etc.) to visceral, brutish treatments (Death Wish, The Brave One, etc.). Of course, my views and examples of what is sensitive and what is brutish may differ from those of everyone else in this forum, but hopefully I've gotten the point across.

Until indie games start tackling these issues on a regular basis (and lets face it, EA and the other big boys probably never will) then all games will continue to be seen as childish diversions by the more 'mature' media worlds.

Vashner   (Nov 06, 2007 at 16:14 GMT)   Resource Rating: 5

Careful not to cross the line from an entertainment application to a simulation. Simulations are being used for all kinda of things that I think go beyond the purpose of a game and into the realm of interactive simulation. Maybe the grey area there is huge.

Joshua Dallman   (Nov 06, 2007 at 17:59 GMT)

@Chris: Spectacle is a shortcut to thoughtful exposition. Anyone can burn an American flag to protest the war, it takes a lot more effort to write an essay on why the war is immoral. Both have the same message, but the latter has the greater opportunity to make a real and lasting impact.

A random example of a "better way" would be a game where you are a reporter or activist armed only with a camera and must infiltrate and document abuses in stealth and then escape. It is then no longer about the "headshot" (or as Anton suggests the "crotchshot") but instead is about the abuses themselves.

Anyone can make a controversial game. It is much harder to tackle controversial issues in a meaningful way.

Anton Bursch   (Nov 06, 2007 at 18:42 GMT)

Joshua Dallman,

I like the reporter/activist armed with a camera idea. I didn't seriously think that a violent game would be a good game to make to spread awareness.

Quote:

---

as Anton suggests the "crotchshot"

---

You know what though. After reading your reporter/actvist idea... of having to infiltrate and document abuse... that may be ok for a game... but if I was really in a slave camp, I think that maybe I would want to turn off the camera and pick up the shotgun and blow the mfs away. I don't think I could stand to just video tape people in that kind of a situation in real life. If you have ever expereinced anything like this yourself you could never stand by and just let it happen to other people... while you document it.

So, there you go. That's the game. Rogue Reporter. You go on assignment to report on horrors in the world and you end up fighting.

Joshua Dallman   (Nov 06, 2007 at 22:16 GMT)

I think you still missed my point.

Steve Flowers   (Nov 07, 2007 at 02:07 GMT)

I think he got your point:) He's probably just messing with you and venting passion - likely both to explore more of your view in a semi-goading way and express a level of anger. I'm curious as well.

Through history art has been leveraged as spectacle to create awareness, shock, horror - this isn't anything new. Is there anything wrong with it? I guess it depends on your stance, I don't take things so literally and I'm tough to offend (except wholesomeness overload and severe cases of PC... that offends me) :) Is it distasteful? Probably, but what DOESN'T cause cancer?

But I think we should look at similar issues another way. The world is pretty messed up in spots and we tend to shrug it off. I think a spectacle is no worse than the typical reaction... 'It's someone elses problem in a galaxy far, far away'. If the spectacle helps to raise awareness and drive sensible action then it has done something good that isn't completely aweful (however distastefully the message is portrayed).

There are ways to deal with the evil in the world, but no ways that are completely successful. Ignoring the problem doesn't work, neither does diplomacy or violence. When folks stand up to do something about it, they are criticized or criticized by folks who would do it differently. Most of us (me included) spend our days worried about our own tiny problems, firmly resolved in the idea that everything cannot be solved until we share a common goal or a common view (read never). People are largely selfish beasts, easily manipulated by those with the power to do so. The balance between those who have compassion and those who do not is evenly balanced. That's nature I suppose. When will the world be ready to change? It's growing better, look at history... Time, revolution, death, birth, enlightenment, rare leadership, extraterrestrial invasion -- these things cause change.

Awareness is only one part of the puzzle and awareness is fleeting. Until dinosaurs return to reign, lasting changes will be driven by economic factors. The incentives to maintain accountability will be found in the pocketbook. Perhaps a better use of technology / gaming tech would be to create a simulation of what could happen to your business if buyers changed their behaviors based on your lack of accountability. If this was good enough, and people were armed with the knowledge of exactly how to disarm a corporation - it would STILL fail because teenagers don't care about the kid taking a beating for their new baggy pants and slick tennies:)

So who is the enemy? Apathy. How do you battle apathy? It's simple... monkeys. Lots of monkeys. Armed monkeys. People care about armed monkeys.

Most kidding aside, I like Joshua's idea - it's neat and oh-so-deliciously-PC. The fun factor may be fairly low (it's not like taking pictures of Pikachu - now THAT is fun...) and I'm not sure pussyfooting around the issue is going to change things.

Then again, I didn't wake up this morning resolved to change the behaviors of evildoers worldwide. Maybe tomorrow;P
Edited on Nov 07, 2007 02:25 GMT

Anton Bursch   (Nov 07, 2007 at 03:10 GMT)

@Steve Flowers

Yeah, I got Josh's point. I was trying to continue a conversation with everyone.

I read an interview with Robert Redford about his movie Lions for Lambs. I like what he said right from the begining of the interview.

Quote:

---

Robert Redford: Well, I imagined that I would be speaking to some kind of choir. How big it would be, I didn't know. The country has become so polarized, quite frankly, but in terms of that polarization, I don't know how great of a division there is in regards to how many people are here and how many are over there. I know who is extremely over there, and I think that it is so far gone over there that I don't concern myself with them. Where other people are is something that I really don't know. I certainly know who I am and the kind of films that I like to make and the way that I like to make them, which is to not to deliver propaganda with a ribbon tied around it and the answers all fixed. I prefer ending more with a question that can involve the audience and let them think about how they feel about the issues that are being brought up.

---

Thomas Buscaglia   (Nov 07, 2007 at 05:26 GMT)

I want my games to entertain me, not lecture me. If a game is too preechy it becomes boring and begins to annoy people, even those who might already agree with the message. That's not to say that games can't educate or inspire people, but it has to be done correctly. If you're too gung-ho about "shooting those mf's" you risk alienating your audience. I actually like the reporter idea, but if the premise was simply, "your character hates mf's because mf's are bad and wants to expose them for the mf'ing mf's they mf'ing are... mf!" I would probably not play the game because it doesn't sound compelling.

Most people already know that rape is bad. An edu-game about how rapists are bad sounds boring. That really just comes down to good storytelling, though.

That's my 2c.

Alan Hembra   (Nov 07, 2007 at 13:43 GMT)

You know if you combined the stealth like approach of Thief or Splinter Cell with journalist with a camera where you try to sneak in and film the atrocities then make your escape with no detection I think it would be great Anton.

This is a group of monsters who are mostly getting away with their brutality. If a game could bring that to light and start mainstream dialog it would be a good thing.

Chris Calef   (Nov 07, 2007 at 23:09 GMT)

Wow, good discussion here! Some points that occur to me:

* In the "spectacle vs. thoughtful" debate, what you have to ask is A) can my method really convince someone or is it just offensive (i.e. writing an essay vs. burning a flag, etc.) but also B) is anyone going to hear about or read my thoughtful essay, vs. doing something spectacularly offensive that gets on the front page (or in all the gaming mags)? There are all kinds of solutions that don't offend anyone and seem inherently "more productive" but they very often fail to attract any attention, because they appear to the average observer to be, for lack of a better word, boring. This problem extends well beyond the world of gaming and through all different sorts of political activism, and explains the propensity of certain types to engage in controversial tactics to get their message out.

* Re: "I want my games to be fun, not preachy" there are also two ways to look at that, being A) there are lots and lots of games in the world, and the vast majority are doing nothing whatsoever except trying to be fun. I think there's plenty of room there for games that try to still be fun, but also say something real about the world. The other extreme, unfortunately, is B) the large number of educational games that forgot all about being fun, because they were made by Education PhDs who hate fun and would be embarrassed to create anything that was the least bit entertaining. I think edu-games are a great idea, but they don't work if no one wants to play them. For that reason, I would definitely lean toward a game that let me tear up an outlaw rapist bandit camp, as opposed to skulking around taking pictures and hoping to somehow sway public opinion with my earnest documentary. That kind of work is what real life is for. If it's a game I want to KILL the mfers. :-)

Edit: oh yeah, and also armed monkeys, that's a great idea. And bears, never neglect your right to arm bears.
Edited on Nov 07, 2007 23:28 GMT

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