Do We Need Game Producers?

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Tom Perry   (Jan 02, 2007 at 13:25 GMT)

I think for an indie team a "pure" producer isn't needed, the size of the team and project doesn't often require one; though an artist with programming knowledge, a programmer with art knowledge, or a designer with both should take the role. A reason why a lot of games fail is because of lack of communication; with someone pushing everyone to do the work and making sure people are pulling their weight the game is much more likely to succeed. Just my 2C.

Jeff Loveless   (Jan 02, 2007 at 13:55 GMT)

Having a producer role on the team is definately helpfull for seeing things through to the finish.

James Bond   (Jan 02, 2007 at 14:41 GMT)

My feelings are, as the scope of Indie projects increases so does the team size. This in turn increases the value of the Producer role within a team.

Jaimi McEntire   (Jan 02, 2007 at 15:14 GMT)

My take on this is that the roles you mentioned are all needed, but that the multiple roles can be filled by a single person in many cases. I also think that the "Producer" title is a bit of a misnomer (even though it is used extensively through the industry) - In non-game development, this person is known as the "Project Manager", which I feel is a better term for what they do.

Anton Bursch   (Jan 02, 2007 at 15:31 GMT)

@Jaimi

Yeah, I use project manager too. But, producer sounds more important. :)

Timothy Aste   (Jan 02, 2007 at 16:12 GMT)

With my experiences, definitely a big yes. With small teams (1-3 people), not having one means someone is left doing the administrative, business, and otherwise org. tasks 50% or more of the time, meaning that person is not doing their actual role 50% or more of the time (art programming etc). A good example is Bravetree, Joe and Clark were doing a lot of bizdev, org, and support/administrative work in addition to having to be a full time artist and programmer.

With bigger teams, without having someone leading the charge and keeping the team focused, and handling those "fun" tasks, your team will be unfocused, wandering, and delayed. That is not to say someone is a dictator by any long shot, in fact far far from it, everyone should be responsible for designing a game on the team, but someone needs to keep the project in-line with the original goal and vision (the danger of "wouldn't it be cool if we...."), and handle a lot of the tasks that are unfortunately necessary to get the game to market that aren't strictly programming or art. Etc etc. Yawn 8am.

J Sears   (Jan 02, 2007 at 16:49 GMT)

I would think on an indie level the person who would be the "game producer" wouldn't really just have that job. It would be an artist or programmer that had an idea and needed people to help create it. So he/she would still decide the path the game would take but would still do a lot of art or programming so not a specific game producer only.

Now I think on a larger scale it would work more like this, there's people who have amazing programming or art skill but don't necessarily have any new creative ideas. And there are people that have amazing ideas for new games but no means what so ever of making them come true. So you match up the idea man with the artists and programmers and come up with a great product.

Logan Foster   (Jan 02, 2007 at 17:03 GMT)

Producers are needed and necessary. Why? You need to have someone involved in the project who can "Yay" or "Nay" decisions about the project. Someone who can keep everyone on task and ensure that tasks are being done in a timely manner and with the quality that is needed.

Like Tim said, they aren't a dictator, a proper producer will listen to the input that all team members have to say, but they also are not your friends either. They are there to bust your ass when you fall behind or do something incorrectly, if you step outside of the scope of the game they are there to reel you back in, if the team is split amongst a debate at what to do, the producer needs to be there to say "we do it this way and thats the end of discussion". Lastly they are there to ensure that team members aren't having any bumps either be it professionally or personally and if they are, they do what they can to help that member out because at the end of the day you succeed as a team or fail as a team and the producer is the glue that ensures that it sticks together and attention areas get the attention they need.

With that said, this is why I feel that good producers need to have experiance doing alot of the tasks involved in making the product they are making as well has having great people and social skills. They don't need to be an advanced programmer and artist and everything else, but they do need to understand how the art is made, how code is written, how to deal with people and so on and so forth to do their job best. It's more than just throwing on a hat that says "producer" and thinking you can boss around your team members to make "your" game.

So be it a large team or a small team, a producer is necessary to ensure that the project moves ahead at a steady and productive pace and that is done by doing a hundred smaller tasks to ensure that problems get resolved ahead of time and the best, easiest and smoothest road possible is taken to get there.

Flybynight Studios   (Jan 02, 2007 at 17:27 GMT)

Depends on the scale of the project I suppose..

A pac man clone with 3 people working towards a shared goal might be ok without one. Here are some points that a lot of people miss about project administration though:

1) One person has to have the final say regarding design. I like to think that I keep a very open mind and take a lot of feedback into concideration while laying out the design of my game. Fact is though that at some point team members must be willing to accept your decision as final. If someone doesn't have absolute veto and control over the team and the team doesn't respect that you end up in endless design "discussions" that go no where.

2) Administrating a game project takes boatloads of work. huge ammounts of it. Everything from maintaining docs, maintaining assets, monitoring backups for the website, forums, game assets, maintaining the game servers / database servers, recruiting qualified help, responding to emails about the game and general PR about the project... It's very overwhelming at times. In a busy week I'd say I get over 50 emails that need to be responded to, heck I swear some weeks its 100.

3) Someone needs to keep the team focused on what they do. If you don't have someone there to guide your team, inspire them, encourage them etc, the project wont make deadlines and will, inevitably, not produce results. Certainly not in a timely fashion.

Now all of the above taken into consideration, one of the biggest problems that project leads/producers have is that they dont bring any skills to the table. Let's face it if we all had professional game production experience we wouldnt be indie producing our own "blockbusters" right? ;) So many people want to lead but do not have a clue where to start. The worst case is instead of inspiring the team to success they order people around and then sit back hoping to make money off of other peoples blood sweat and tears.

I guess based on my own 5 years of amature horsing around I would say that a leader is a definite necessity but with the noteable stipulation that they should lead by example and prove that they have what it takes to make things happen. In my case, I am the Public relations guy, the web designer, the server administrator, the human resources department, lead designer, lead scripter and principle 3D modeler. Oh yeah and the producer ;) and investor... and general all round fall guy when things go wrong ;) Think thats a lot of hats to wear? I've had over 40 people working on Aakrana in the last 2 years and I still need to do all of the above. Why? It's my dream. It's my project. No one cares about it, nor can you expect them to honestly, as much as I do. That said there have been some awesome people that I've had the privalege of working with over the last several years and some amazingly dedicated individuals.

One of the most important factors to keep in mind as an indie "producer" is that for the most part your talent pool is volunteer. Unpaid. That means you are asking peopel to give up, in some cases, hundreds if not thousands of man hours to invest in YOUR idea. At the very least you owe them the courtesy of investing just as much of your own efforts and time as you ask of them and show the reults of your work.

If you havent seen my project before you can check it out here.

http://www.aakrana.com

Phil Carlisle   (Jan 02, 2007 at 17:28 GMT)

It's a very debatable thing really. Clearly any project needs elements of "production" but that is more project management skills than anything.

In my own experience, I've had both great and rubbish "producers", so it goes without saying that there isnt a simple answer to this.

On balance, I'd say that SOMEONE has to be a vision carrier, SOMEONE has to manage development. But I dont really deep down feel that a producer with absolute authority is the way to go. I've worked on projects where a producer really wasnt in effect that went fine. I've seen projects where there was a producer and they all went under.

The better question might be, what sort of skills does a team need to ship a given game. However those skills are packaged doesnt really matter, as long as the skills are covered. It might make more sense to have an artist doing the design or a programmer doing the management or biz dev! (I'm not saying it has to though).

Prairie Games   (Jan 02, 2007 at 17:31 GMT)

Yes, you need a producer... if you don't have one, you'll be doing it in addition to your other jobs. Here's a snip from our game's credits:

Producer, Programmer, Game Designer
Josh Ritter

Producer, Level Designer, RPG Layout
Lara Engebretson

We felt that the producer role was important enough to list it first.

Tony Richards   (Jan 02, 2007 at 17:53 GMT)

I agree with Phil... game development teams require tens of roles to be filled, and if you have a small team of 1-5 people, someone (if not everyone) is going to have to wear multiple hats, and quite likely you won't be able to dedicated an asset wholely to fill the role of producer.

Vashner   (Jan 02, 2007 at 18:24 GMT)

@Josh - Superhumans don't count :)

Project Manager might be a better term. Often producer has cash ties and can actually ruin a game.

Cough vanguard saga of heros cough...

As an example. A solid mgr will help. A suit that's not a devloper that has corporate ties can just nerf things to the point of over political correctness or dumbed down content won't IMO. Argh well that depends on the situation I guess.

Todd Pickens   (Jan 02, 2007 at 18:59 GMT)

I have worked on teams with great producers, and really, REALLY BAD producers, and they can without a doubt make or break a project.

In my opinion, a producers job is fundamentally to enable the team to achieve the goals of the project. In some cases (depending on a wide range of factors), that can mean anything from an almost hands off approach, to cracking a whip when necessary. Basically they are, or should be, a manager over the whole of the project who identifies what is needed to get the development team from A-Z.

Unfortunately, the way publisher developer business takes place (at least in the case of independent non publisher owned development studios), there are WAY too often conflicts of interest when the producer works for a large publisher, which can result producers covering there own butt at the cost others and or the project and the developer.

Speaking in general terms, it is also my experience that an unfortunate reality of our very young industry is that most of the people in it really have no business back ground (management, team leadership, etc.) to draw on. Producers are a good example of a trial and error, learn as they go career path in the game biz. Sadly that means some ones project has to be their guinea pig.

I have some good friends that are producers, and I have also worked with some I would like to feed through a wood chipper.

Bottom line is yes, they are necessary, and when capable and professional, they are a blessing. The flip side of that is that they can be the worst thing to happen to a project.

Rule of thumb, ALWAYS do you home work on people before entering into a business relationship with them.

Jay Barnson   (Jan 02, 2007 at 19:08 GMT)

Whenever you have two or more people working on a project, someone's going to have to be management. That doesn't necessarily need to be their full-time job, unless it's a larger team. And even in a "lone wolf" scenario, if you are capable of doing it all (and let it be known that I resent and covet your talent!), you are going to have to be doing producer / management things... such as:

* Managing any outsourced contracts
* Making deals with publishers / distributors / portals / affiliates
* Managing the website, or working with the person who does
* Arranging testing with outside testers
* Setting up e-commerce for the game
* Marketing tasks - even if you hire someone else to market for you, you may be called upon to provide screenshots, give interviews, etc.
* Coordinating efforts between team members (if there are more than one) to make sure tasks don't get stalled.

Etc.

It's an essential role to commercial game development. Whether you have one person dedicated to the task or have someone else doing double-duty, you can't escape the need for the role.

Rubes   (Jan 02, 2007 at 19:40 GMT)

Quote:

---

A thread here got me thinking and talking about the role of game producers. The thread was a discussion about who should follow who's game design: artists or programmers. To which my response was: neither, how about a game designer.

---

Well, to be honest, it wasn't really about who should follow who's game idea, it was more like "does it make more sense for a programmer to follow an artist's idea than vice-versa", mainly due to the cost of development.

But as other people have pointed out, it seems like you are trying to make these points:

1. A game needs a game designer.
2. A game needs a producer (I prefer manager, too).

I don't think anyone would argue these points, but it sounds like you're also trying to argue that the people who fill those roles would not also have other roles on the project (like artist or programmer).

As others have pointed out, being a small indie developer means wearing multiple hats. While I think there's a good argument that this is the path to failure (doing lots of things adequately well instead of one or two things really well), unfortunately that's life for many of us.

As a project or a team becomes successful, and more projects are undertaken, then I think it makes sense to expand to try and include specific individuals for those roles. But often it takes success to beget success, or something along those lines.

For my project Vespers3D, it's interesting because I did take a route you mentioned: I chose an established text adventure game as the basis for my TGE game. So basically, the game was already designed and written, just in text, so in essence we have a game designer as part of our group. Together, the two of us make all of the critical game design and implementation decisions. But as the lead on the project, I still manage everyone else, and it wouldn't make sense to have someone specifically in that role right now.

I agree with Jay, though, that a lot of those jobs listed can take up a tremendous amount of time for someone who has other roles as well. A lot of it sounds like marketing, though, and there's always the option to include someone who specializes in that (which I would recommend). That's still a long way off for us, though.
Edited on Jan 02, 2007 19:42 GMT

Anton Bursch   (Jan 02, 2007 at 20:18 GMT)

@Rubes

I have my opinion, but that's just me and it's very filtered thru my experience and current needs. I thought this was an interesting topic worth hearing from other people. I especially like hearing details of why people think what they think about producers.

James   (Jan 02, 2007 at 21:11 GMT)

@ Rube and Anton - I have to laugh and of course throw my size 12s into the mix.

As Josh said above:

Quote:

---

Producer, Programmer, Game Designer
Josh Ritter

---

Well, my credit would read:

Quote:

---

Producer, Art Director, Game Designer
James Allan

---

I don't argue with you Anton but my team is not that big that I can afford to have one person just be a Producer. Won't be enough work for him/her and I doubt they'd come at it with the same passion.

If or perhaps when (wouldn't that be a sweet day :) ) that I begin to pitch my game, I'll hire someone to help out, give advice... or just do the job. Until then it's just me, my passion and enthusiasm :)

Cheers!

*edit: damn formatting - braces vs box brackets... damn my eyes :)
Edited on Jan 02, 2007 21:13 GMT

Jeremy Alessi   (Jan 02, 2007 at 23:39 GMT)

You definitely need a producer. Without someone to keep an eye on the whole forest you just end up with a lot of nice trees that don't match.

Steve Flowers   (Jan 03, 2007 at 00:30 GMT)

I think there's a thin line between Producer and Team Leader / Manager, - the line may be drawn from the depth of the organization within the project.

Whether you need an experienced producer can also depend on the attributes and characteristics of your team members, IMO. I do a different type of development, not games but similar. There's a characteristic I call 'wrangler' that I love to see in my leads. Someone who has great communication skills, is able to track on their own outputs and the outputs of others, and is able to pull things together; incrementally like report outputs, or in the aggregate like their team outputs. The wranglers don't need to be experts in everything, but should have a really good grasp on their part of the output, whether that is guru status in their AOR or just being able to nail the right resources to the right problem at the right time.

In my book good Producer should have high marks in 'wrangler', but in a perfect world won't have to bust out the nasty wrangler stuff often:) Delegation, trust, and staying on top of what needs to get done tends to reduce a lot of the pressure differential that can ruin a production experience.

I agree with Jeremy, someone needs a whole forest view. Heck everyone needs some in-progress alignment that shows the forest view. But to me a Producer is more of a facilitator of success, a coordinator, a motivator, and someone who collects and carries the vision.

+ Preferably a dude or dudette that doesn't put the 'suck' in success.
Edited on Jan 03, 2007 00:37 GMT

Rubes   (Jan 03, 2007 at 02:41 GMT)

@Anton: Understood, of course. And I don't entirely disagree with you. I really enjoy discussing things like indie team building so thanks for providing the forum for it.

Joe Maruschak   (Jan 03, 2007 at 23:17 GMT)

Quote:

---

As others have pointed out, being a small indie developer means wearing multiple hats. While I think there's a good argument that this is the path to failure (doing lots of things adequately well instead of one or two things really well), unfortunately that's life for many of us.

---

just wanted to add, having been in the seat of wearing multiple hats, that it is possible to do so, and that it actually works better when there is one persons whose sole (or primary) responsibility is management.

what seems to work for me is the management/designer role first, art director second (at a high level, I like making myself look good by handing off the details to others to make pretty art), and then production last, and only if the management and direction needs of the project let me do so. Trying to be the main 'producer' in terms of actually making useful art and code while managing is possible, but it is very hard (and makes for long hours). If it cannot be avoided, it still needs to be done (management).. but it is preferable not to try to do both jobs at once if there is some other way.

Sparkling   (Jan 26, 2007 at 20:30 GMT)

Hmmm by the definition inferred through this discussion I guess I am very much a Producer. I didn't set out with the idea "I want to be a game producer, so I'll do...such&such". Producer sounds like such a presumptuous title to declare oneself... I started out as a homeschooling gamer Mom frustrated by the games available on the market. I want something different. Something better. I want games that are both meaningful AND fun! If it isn't fun it doesn't matter how accurate or educational the game is, if it isn't fun no one will play it to find out. Fun is of absolute importance. But as a Mom, fun has to be balanced with meaningful or I feel like it is a waste of my time and I still won't play it, because I don't have time to waste, I have more important things to do. And I do have some game ideas. Several actually, but through prayer and soul searching I decided that I needed to make the Biblical gamefirst. And due to the scope and magnitude of Visions, it is impossible for us to work on more than one game at a time - we barely have time enough for Visions as it is. So, I'm just making one game right now. A huge game. a 3d graphics mmorpg set in the 2nd century holy land. And it is not "just another mmorpg" it's a different kind of game for a different kind of gamer. At least, I hope so! You can read more about it on my website if you're interested, this is not the time or place for that discussion. :)

So I find myself most unexpectedly in this role of Game Designer, Producer, Project Leader, Artist, Writer, Recruiter, Web developer (which I do poorly, but I'm the only one who does it consistently, so I do it), and Adminsitrator, and all the other little things that fall into those categories. Definitely wearing a whole store full of hats! I didn't start out with this position as my destination... I just started out with a game idea, a passion, and a background in Organzational management, virtual leadership roles, and a love for online games. When I started out, severalpeople were telling me that if I wanted to make my own game I was going to have to learn programming. I took BASIC in high school... programming today just is NOT the same anymore! I looked at some C++ programming books. I am NOT a programmer. My brain is just not wired that way. I'm an artist and a writer. When I started out on this path of recruiting people to help me it was with the knowledge that i could not write code and I needed someone to help me. It was also with the idea that I was an officer and guildleader in online games, and I did recruiting to form raids, and build the guild, why couldn't I recruit people in a similar virtual environment to make a game? And so began the first step of my journey with that initial leap of faith.

I think everyone who finds themself on this path, probably started out on a different road. I kind of have a feeling that there isn't "one correct way" to get into a leadership role. Some of it is talent, some of it is training, and some of it is sheer neccesity - because it has to be done, and people start looking at you as if you're the one supposed to do it. SO you do it. One of the most significant things I have learned in the last 3 years is that we're all just regular folks. None of us are perfect. VERY FEW are truly experts, though some rare few are exceptionally talented! The world is not being run by "the best" people, it's being run by the people who were willing to step forward and do what has to be done to get the job done. As I was confiding in a team mate recently, saying I often wonder why God called ME to do this job, why did He call ME to make this game? I worry sometimes that I'm just chasing rainbows. I often feel underqualified and overwhelmed. But he assured me that he is absolutely certain God called me to make this game, and that perhaps He didn't call me because I was qualified, but because I was available. I think this may be true for many, if not most, "Producers" out there. Maybe they didn't start out qualified, maybe they didn't even start out with the goal of becoming a Producer, maybe they learn their skills in the school of hard knocks just like me, they BECOME qualified, because they endure the trials, and stay the course, and keep on running even when they don't know where they are going, until they get to the end. They earn their stripes through trial and frustration, through blood, sweat and tears, and they truly know the joy of triumph because they have experienced the pain of defeat as they conquor their fears along the way.

So the question... does every indie team need a producer? Probably to the same degree that the game design demands. If you're just making a little tic-tac-toe game then no you probably don't need a producer. If you're making a MMORPG, you need someone who has the time, talent and above all the DESIRE to make sure everyone is on the same page. If you're all reading the same book, but not even in the same chapter it can be difficult to maintain effective concentration on the project. Some people like to read ahead, while others don't even like to open the cover. Some people are enthusiastic self-starters who are excited about the project and want to see it succeed, some are ambivalent co-dependant hermits that just want some experience to put on their resume, most are somewhere inbetween. As Project Leader - or as this thread calls the role, Producer - you have to get all these people working together cooperatively and learn how to balance the variable rate of output from contributors so that when one person slacks off, it doesn't hold up the entire team. This takes some time to figure out sometimes. But you need someone who is dedicated to figuring it out. That person might fill in gaps in the lines sometimes, as their abilities allow. Producer might draw a quick sketch for the artists to build a model out of, might model a quick prop, or something small. Might fill in some special quest text that needs to be done and no one has picked up as an assignment yet. But the producer/project leader rarely has time to really get involved in a detailed animation sequence, or a multipart storyline. Too many other obligations pull at their time.

OK I just realised that I've written more text here than the originator of this thread. (Is that like the sin of wearing a prettier dress than the bride?) So I will stop now. I've probably stepped over the line into "wasting time" now and should really get back to work. But this topic has personal passion for me. Because I am in the midst of the journey. I haven't fully arrived yet, but I'm definitely out of the starting box! I hope it is of some help to someone who comes after me and is seeking encouragement.

Blessings to you,
-Sparkling
http://www.visionsgame.com
Edited on Jan 26, 2007 20:31 GMT

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