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Plan for Phil Carlisle
Plan for Phil Carlisle
| Name: | Phil Carlisle |  |
|---|---|---|
| Date Posted: | Aug 22, 2004 | |
| Rating: |  4.7 out of 5 | |
| Public: | NO | |
| Comments: | YES | |
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| Profile Page: | View profile page for Phil Carlisle |
Blog post
Sorry, have to vent some spleen right now and this is the place to do it! Apologies in advance if this doesnt apply to you!
Ok.
I just want to address the issue of "can torque do X" where 'x' is a specific game genre.
Well, the thing is, the answer is always "YES". How can that be? well, because torque isnt the limiting factor here. YOU are.
The thing is, Torque is just a codebase. It doesnt have any more or any less limits on it than any other codebase. It is an architecture, a way of putting together programs with a lot of functionality already there. Torque could be made to produce ANY game with either greater or lesser effort by the right person. I'm sure Torque could render like Doom 3 if john carmack got it. It could be made to work like Warcraft if blizzard got it, it could be made to make a platform game if sonicteam got it.
My point is that because you have the code, it is YOUR responsibility to produce the correct feature set for your game. Torque is a start, it is NOT the game.
For some reason, many people here seem to have missed the part where you actually have to do some WORK to create your game. How is that?
Look at the amount of work commercial games companies put into thier products, where do you think that time goes?
For example, Duke Nukem Forever is using the unreal engine, do you think they just left it as-is from the Unreal codebase? Or did they work on it?
Valve had to modify the Quake 1+2 code to make Halflife etc.
Almost every game development company on the planet has to write a lot of code to create the specific games they want. So why should YOU be any different?
So the next time you feel like asking the question "Can Torque make an XXX?", why not change your train of thought and ask "Can *I* make an RPG?"
Torque isnt magic, it cannot make your game for you, so you have to figure out if you have the skills and ability to produce your game OR alternatively, you need to find a game that matches torque's current feature set more, or find an engine that matches your games feature set more.
So please, do us all a favour, think about the features you require in your game, then think about your ability to make them. If YOU can make those features, then yes, you can make those features work in torque.
Ok.
I just want to address the issue of "can torque do X" where 'x' is a specific game genre.
Well, the thing is, the answer is always "YES". How can that be? well, because torque isnt the limiting factor here. YOU are.
The thing is, Torque is just a codebase. It doesnt have any more or any less limits on it than any other codebase. It is an architecture, a way of putting together programs with a lot of functionality already there. Torque could be made to produce ANY game with either greater or lesser effort by the right person. I'm sure Torque could render like Doom 3 if john carmack got it. It could be made to work like Warcraft if blizzard got it, it could be made to make a platform game if sonicteam got it.
My point is that because you have the code, it is YOUR responsibility to produce the correct feature set for your game. Torque is a start, it is NOT the game.
For some reason, many people here seem to have missed the part where you actually have to do some WORK to create your game. How is that?
Look at the amount of work commercial games companies put into thier products, where do you think that time goes?
For example, Duke Nukem Forever is using the unreal engine, do you think they just left it as-is from the Unreal codebase? Or did they work on it?
Valve had to modify the Quake 1+2 code to make Halflife etc.
Almost every game development company on the planet has to write a lot of code to create the specific games they want. So why should YOU be any different?
So the next time you feel like asking the question "Can Torque make an XXX?", why not change your train of thought and ask "Can *I* make an RPG?"
Torque isnt magic, it cannot make your game for you, so you have to figure out if you have the skills and ability to produce your game OR alternatively, you need to find a game that matches torque's current feature set more, or find an engine that matches your games feature set more.
So please, do us all a favour, think about the features you require in your game, then think about your ability to make them. If YOU can make those features, then yes, you can make those features work in torque.
Recent Blog Posts
| List: | 11/28/08 - GDC AI sessions 09/18/08 - Tell me I'm not going crazy!! 12/05/07 - The importance of good tools for productivity 11/17/07 - Using the way back machine. 09/21/07 - Juggling cats. 09/04/07 - End of Summer. 08/27/07 - Come work with me!! 08/14/07 - The changing nature of entertainment |
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Submit your own resources!| Tom Bampton (Aug 22, 2004 at 13:48 GMT) |
T.
| Frogger (Aug 22, 2004 at 13:56 GMT) Resource Rating: 5 |
| David Montgomery-Blake (Aug 22, 2004 at 14:05 GMT) |
| Brett Fattori (Aug 22, 2004 at 14:38 GMT) |
What people fail to realize is that it isn't a game dev studio.. it's 500K+ lines of code that can be molded, twisted, and warped into anything they can imagine, and then implement. Problem is, most people don't have that ability yet and they also don't seem to want to learn it either. I'm feeling as frustrated as Phil is. People bash TGE because it doesn't do what Product X does as soon as they download it. Plus, they expect everyone else to write them resources, and plug-ins, and code, and art, to make their friggin game!
Whew... I need to get off this box and get to work! Lots to do to make dRacer awesome..
- Brett
(Edited for hasty mind dumping)
Edited on Aug 22, 2004 14:40 GMT
| Craig Fortune (Aug 22, 2004 at 14:50 GMT) |
Was chatting to Matt Summers asking how the gamespace exporter rollout has been going, he said he found it funny how a minority were complaining that you had to export to .x and reload the .x file in gamespace to reset all transforms corrcetly. This takes all of 30seconds to do... and its gamespaces fault, not the exporter.
So instead of being grateful for having the ability to use their app of choice with torque for free, they complained saying it wasn't good enough. Some people eh?
The same situation is here in your .plan, whereby people expect everything to be done for them, for nothing. Count the threads of people complaining about the price of tge or tse! Its madness. people need to realise that the big red button we all joke about will never exist, you HAVE TO PUT EFFORT IN YOURSELF.
| Pat Wilson (Aug 22, 2004 at 16:12 GMT) |
| Luke D (Aug 22, 2004 at 16:21 GMT) Resource Rating: 5 |
The reality though is these questions and situations will never stop. Torque appears to offer something every avid gamer wants and dreams about: the ability to go beyond playing games and create them, be it for fun, fame, money, etc. It's like the adulation given to actors except people DO usually understand that acting is mostly about talent; people know there aren't any magic tools that provide a shortcut to becoming a star.
Not so with games, and especially the likes of Torque. Heck we probably make it worse when we tell them "it can do anything you want if you're willing to make it" because they read "it can do anything you want" and stop reading. :)
So these types of newcomers and these types of questions aren't going away, sadly. But a nice newbie FAQ would be a great start so we can point people to it and move on with our games, and avoid the silly sarcastic remarks and flames over and over again, which are getting just as old as the questions themselves.
@Craig: It is a real shame that people aren't more appreciative of the work people toil on for months and then release totally free of charge (or super-cheap) often with better direct support from the authors than most commercial products. The gameSpace exporter is a perfect example. I almost wish it WERE sold so (a) I could show my appreciation with my $$, and (b) because it would weed out some of the ungrateful "What, it doesn't automatically model my characters too?" people as well. But then they'd get flak for it "not doing 'Random-Feature-A' like it should for that price".. No good freebie ever goes unflamed. :(
In an attempt to give back in a tiny way for their wonderful product, I gave Matt a tSX w/source that accomplishes what the .X export does, so perhaps he can silence some of those complainers. If you use gameSpace I'll happily give it to you or anyone that wants it. It is far from fancy and there is a bug if you've rotated your object axes off-default (Matt might try to fix that, but none of my objects have that issue so I didn't persue fixing it).
Er, sorry for the minor thread-hijack there...
| fireVein (Aug 22, 2004 at 18:10 GMT) |
-Jase
| Xavier "eXoDuS" Amado (Aug 22, 2004 at 20:25 GMT) |
But oh, well...
| Charlie Malbaurn (Aug 22, 2004 at 21:12 GMT) |
Then after I got used to things I knew that it probably wouldn't be a good thing. The more simple something is the more restricted it becomes. Not only that, the more simple the people become.
I started on some other 2d Game site and it was just flooded with the 'Can I' and 'Does it' questions your talking about. The people who knew what they where doing where either not answering questions or snapping at everyone.
I like the engine and I like the people. It's good that people act as adults and don't flip out over easy questions.
I hope we can keep it like that
Sorry for the spelling mistakes. English IS my first language
| Nauris Krauze (Aug 23, 2004 at 05:44 GMT) |
Seriously though, it IS a bit unnerving seeing the same questions asked over and over. I mean- I`m not even a coder/scripter, but I think I can answer good deal of them by now just because I`ve seen them answered hundreds of times.
What ever happened to little research before bursting into forums and typing all CAPS? I know that when I join some specific forums, I tend to browse the archives first whenever I have a question. Not only it usually answers my question, it gives great deal of additional info on related subjects. And Google *is* your friend. If you have a question, there`s 99.93% possibility that someone else has had the same question, asked it online and has gotten ten different answers already.
FAQ online would be a great thing indeed. You could save time by just posting link whenever the same and same questions arise.
Actually, I like how Pixelation boards did - they had extensive FAQ, you were *required* to read before signing up for account, because, during registration, you had to check the right answers to questions. It ensured that most people had read it and didnt ask too many basic questions.
| David Dougher (Aug 23, 2004 at 11:33 GMT) |
There are two different groups of people who ask that question. The group that Phil is addressing (and the group that many people think is the only group that asks the question) is the "Gimme Gimme Gimme" crowd. You know them. They want to make a game that is a combination of Doom 4, Star Craft 2, and Diablo 3, except that it will be more awesome! They want torque's new "WYWFIWYGWAW"(tm)* code interface to whip them up the game of their dreams...
The other group is a team composed primarily of artists, backed by a couple of talented scripters. They don't want to have anything to do with changing torque's code. They want to use their expertise (art) to make a game. They want to use scripting to handle the GUI, not not C++.
Torque claims that it can be used to make just about any kind of game, but as you can see from Melv May's new 2D version, and GG's announcement of an upcoming "RTS pack". It isn't quite true unless you have some solid programmers on your team.
Think of them as the "MOD squads". They are intelligent, dedicated, professional people who want to make a game - not muck in network internals. GG offered them a starting point and they want to know if it can deliver - without needing to recompile. They are willing to buy a license and even a copy of C++ to add in some simle resources - but coding is NOT the air that they breathe.
For them, it's a fair question to ask.
So the next time you think you hear a whiney little voice asking, "Can I use torque to make a adventure/RTS/deep space exploration game? Ask yourself, could I actually do this with torque - just as a MOD? Without having to wade through the list of Resources making a list of possible code additions that would take several weeks to integrate and debug? Without having to remove or change the combat/terrain/physics code? If the answer is no then answer them that way.
We have enough bad games in the world without misleading new teams into traveling down the wrong path. A single line - "To do that would require (no/simple/many/extensive - choose one based on your view) modifications to the torque engine code." is all that is required.
Play nice people. Mod teams make great games too.
*WYWFIWYGWAW - Torque's new interface - "What You Wish For Is What You Get - Without Any Work", also now comes with a special add on option - TGWSMCTTS - "This game will sell more copies than the Sims!" for an additional $9.95! and will be available just after the release of John Romero's new game - "Anachronox Street Pinball 3000AD" exclusively at Walmart's nationwide!
| Craig Fortune (Aug 23, 2004 at 11:47 GMT) |
1. Look at the top of your screen, there will likely be an advert (may have to refresh a few times) saying, "Why make a mod when you can make a game?"
... which thus leads onto...
2. Torque is a game engine, not a game. For modders, they should just do a damn mod instead...
Edited on Aug 23, 2004 11:50 GMT
| David Dougher (Aug 23, 2004 at 12:23 GMT) |
But, doesn't GG also offer a free download of the version that you can use to make your own MODs with any programmer intervention? They (GG), wisely, opened the door to that possibility. Let's not try and close it on those who see it as an opportunity.
| Craig Fortune (Aug 23, 2004 at 12:58 GMT) |
People seem to expect torque to be their game already. Its like as if people dont want to put the effort in themselves. The problem, as Phil put it, is that people simply expect everything to be there for them already. As if they think professional games developers dont have to put work into their engines they use etc.
| Phil Carlisle (Aug 23, 2004 at 13:31 GMT) |
We should by default expect to have to modify the game in order to create ANYTHING other than the thing that torque was originally created for.
But thats not to say that making almost any kind of game using torque as a start is impossible.
| David Dougher (Aug 23, 2004 at 13:40 GMT) |
And from some of the responses I've seen to people who are looking to purchase, or don't understand programming well enough to find out by looking at the code - in other words - art based teams, the response they sometimes get from the site is less than - stellar.
I think I drew the distinction pretty clearly in what I wrote. And I gave Phil credit for who he was aiming at. But if you look at the other posts, they appear to be the kind of "pile on" responses that drive smaller art based teams from looking at torque.
Face it. Some damned fine games can be made with torque and if you are doing an FPS you can pretty much do it without having to tweak code to any great extent. For other game types it is not as clear a road. For an art-based "MOD team" it is legitimate to ask if it is possible to do the game you envision without needing to add a couple of programmers.
Now, if they generalize the question, or they don't ask it the way a programmer would like to hear it, it may be because they don't have the vocabulary of a programmer. That doesn't mean they they are incapable of making a kick-ass game. I can't discuss rigging a model worth crap and if I tried to ask questions about rigging a model I would be incensed by responses similar to some of the ones that are handed out around here.
Their question from their point of view is, "Here what I want to build - can it be done?" If your response is, "You've got the damned code - don't be a lazy ass. Just read it and answer your own dumb question." then you have just ignored the situation and jumped to a false conclusion. Maybe they are no more capable of reading the code than I am of asking an intelligent question about rigging a model.
One of the reasons for having a team is that not everyone does everything as well as somebody else. You need to cut some slack to those who deserve it, and to those who you are not sure about, because they MIGHT deserve it. That's how a community works best.
That's my point. And I think a lot of people around here are missing it.
Edited on Aug 23, 2004 13:43 GMT
| James Griggs (Aug 28, 2004 at 17:20 GMT) |
I am a Art person, my expertixe is in modelling and animation. I just purchase Torque last week, and with that purchased the book "3D Game Programming All in One" because I cannot code, although I will understand it with practice. I plan to get the most out of Torque Scripting, as I don't know how to code in C++. Hopefully I can acheive my vision that way, if not I will have to get help. One of the main reasons I purchased Torque(and TSE) is because it has a scripting language. I'm gonna get that new Twinno Brain Editor, because that will help me as a artist to think of the code graphically. Lines and lines of code is very intimidating to us "right-brain" types.
Why do so many programmers have to be so elitist?
For example, if someone asked me questions about animation or modelling, I would tell them how to do it. Or if I don't have the time point them to some links that can help. Rather than just assume they are lazy and chop their head off. Automatically jumping to the conclusion that people asking these questions are lazy is very "elitist".
We art types, have much to offer in game development as well. So while you programmers may be like Aragorn or Gimli attacking everything with brute force. We art types are more like Legolas or Gandalf attacking with flare and style. But we can all be in the same 'fellowship'.
| Nauris Krauze (Aug 29, 2004 at 09:45 GMT) |
| James Griggs (Aug 29, 2004 at 11:41 GMT) |
I would not get fed up ever. Because, I used to be the kid asking that question. Back then I didn't know I was asking the question incorrectly. I would be happy they are interested, and hopefully can point them in the right direction. Some people don't know exactly how to talk the "lingo" to ask the questions, others just need a little guidance to see their dreams are possible. They may just need to learn how to look for the information. Thinking that everyone is "lazy" or "stupid" is just as bad as the big studios thinking indy development is "stupid".
If a person doesn't want to answer questions like that, there is still no cause to put someone down for asking. Or to assume they are "lazy". It's just very elitist, and on a forum for "indy" development that's not a good thing.
Don't the big game studios think you are stupid for being an indy developer? How is that any different?
| Nauris Krauze (Aug 29, 2004 at 20:38 GMT) |
Point is, most of the time you encounter people asking wrong questions, it means they havent done (very simple) homework. Which also means that whatever your answer is, its not gonna help them and you`ve lost your time. Answer to "can I make as cool orc dudes in Max as there were in LotR" is "yes and no". Yes- for its possible, no- for the person asking is definetly not ready yet.
There are seas of information out there and most of the time finding it requires 3 minutes in Google. If its too much asked to find it, then person is not ready (yet or ever) to work seriously whether on orc dudes or next MMRPG or whatever.
| James Griggs (Aug 29, 2004 at 23:03 GMT) |
Some people may not even know what Google is. This does not mean they need to get their head bitten off. They may even just need to be directed to Google and do a search for ... Either answer them, or don't answer at all.
But the whole idea of "you should know this" is ridiculus. Apparently the person doesn't know something so they are asking the question the only way they know how to ask it. What may be "very simple" to you, may be just newness. Using your analogy of "they haven't done their homework". Sometimes people don't know what homework to do unless their teacher assignment.
I understand your perspective, of being annoyed at the same questions over and over. But do you see my point at all in this?Are you telling me at no time ever, with anything you never had to ask for help with something? If not what planet are you from?
Since we are making generalities, why is it 90% of the programmers I have worked with over the last 13 years, are all sarcastic and condescending. It's like they forget that they were newbies themselves, and can't wait to stick it to someone else. Does it stem from being a teased outsider growing up? That now that they have more knowledge than someone else they take out their revenge on innocents?
As I learn to program and develop games I hope I never get that way.
| Nauris Krauze (Aug 30, 2004 at 06:36 GMT) |
And maybe those abstract 90 percent of programmers are so neglectful because they remember that when they started out, they figured things out for themselves, not waiting in line for prepackaged spoon of wisdom.
Nauris out.
| James Griggs (Aug 30, 2004 at 10:50 GMT) |
For all you who ascribe to Nauris', and Craig's way of thinking. Have you ever thought that just maybe, if you help the newbies, they will grow in knowledge and then help other newbies? Then you will not be in the role of fielding those questions. People that have been helped often become the first to help others. It's amazing how people forget that they were newbies. Or as Nauris points out since "they figured things out for themselves" they can't help others? Don't you realize that Torque is a GREAT example of helping others?
The guys of Garage Games could have easily taken the attitude of 'you should know how to create your own engine from scratch' but instead they are helping aspiring indy users.
Doesn't this site exist on the idea of helping others? Isn't that the thought behind the Indy Game Conference, to give people insight into an industry that is for the most part "closed and proprietary"?
Like someone mentioned earlier, a FAQ's would be a great thing. Especially for those who are more prone to insulting newbies. Rather than saying "you stupid idiot you should know that" they would be able to say "here's the link to the FAQ's".
| Craig Fortune (Aug 30, 2004 at 13:58 GMT) |
You expect just because people CAN help you means they SHOULD help you. Theres nothing in the EULA saying they HAVE to help you... but we do help regardless ;)
You made assumptions I was a programmer, well that went wrong for you didn't it? I'm a rather busy artist in this community, if you'd done your homework you'd have probably known that and not made yourself look silly. In the process you'd have probably found out Nauris is a very busy artist too. But oh well, we are having to spoonfeed this information to you!
Also, If you'd checked up on us a bit more before jumping to conclusions you'd realise we are highly involved in things like GameInaDay (recent news item) I've also been heavily involved in helping with new Gamespace exporter (oh look, another recent news item...)
If you have been on the GG irc channel you would have seen me helping people, often I even say to people to private message me so I can give them better help then in channel!
I am more then happy to help newbies, but I am NOT prepared to help noobs. Understand the difference? The former is inexperienced but willing to learn. The latter says things like "TORQUE SUCKS!!!1111!1 I CANT DO MY NEW UBER MMORPG WITH IT IN AN HOUR"
My entire point is summed up like this: Dont ever ever accuse me of not helping, and do your homework.
| James Griggs (Aug 30, 2004 at 15:31 GMT) |
I was making the point that people should not simply attack and assume the worst of people who ask seemingly novice questions.
I digress, I used an example of my experience with "programmer-types". I apologize if I insulted programmers.
But it does not change my point about assuming the worst of people. People may simply not know how to ask. They will never learn anything if they don't ask. Or if everytime they ask something they are insulted.
It's one thing to not answer someone's question.(you don't have to). It's a completely different thing to tell someone sarcastically that they are being lazy and should alread know the answer.
Craig, I didn't realise reading your resume was part of the "homework" I had to do to learn Torque. Maybe that should be added to the FAQ's.
I digress, if I have to be 'spoonfed' everyone's "Torque Community Resume" in order to learn, so be it. I'll go get a bowl.
"Dont ever ever accuse me of not helping, and do your homework." Interesting. That second "ever" made me cry and run to my mommy. I'm so afraid now.
| Craig Fortune (Aug 30, 2004 at 19:35 GMT) |
[quote]For all you who ascribe to Nauris
| James Griggs (Aug 30, 2004 at 20:05 GMT) |
Lame, absolutely. Just as lame as "ever ever". Maybe you thought that was more "intimidating" than "lame". Curious, was it supposed to be a threat? Check your own lameness first.
Again, so there is no confusion, I'll make the question simple:
Why do I have to learn about YOU in order to learn Torque?
But back to the point. If someone who is a complete newbie, asks what in your opinion you feel is a "lazy" 'non'-"homeworked" question: Why does that offend YOU personally? If you do choose to answer why not just politely direct them to the FAQ's.
Maybe that's the problem people take offense personally to people who may unknowingly post questions that are not "up to par".
| Craig Fortune (Aug 30, 2004 at 20:18 GMT) |
Dont twist my words please.
| James Griggs (Aug 30, 2004 at 20:37 GMT) |
Quote:ditto.
Dont twist my words please.
To be clear again: It is not right to ASS-UME that someone is being lazy if their questions don't meet your standards. They may just need direction. If anyone can't see the logic in that they should check their ego.
| Craig Fortune (Aug 30, 2004 at 20:50 GMT) |
Theres a difference between needing direction and wanting everything on a plate. If you dont udnerstand this then GG isn't for you.
You have completely and utterly misudnerstood the point of this thread, its point was to complain about people expecting to put minimal effort into making their game, not about us being unwilling to help.
| James Griggs (Aug 30, 2004 at 21:04 GMT) |
Maybe I can explain my point a little further with your words:
Quote:
Theres a difference between needing direction and wanting everything on a plate
That statement automatically categorizes someone as one or the other. A one or a zero, if you will. People are not ones and zeros, not one or the other. But exist somewhere in between.
A person may need direction, but the way they ask a question may seemingly make them look like a person "wanting everything on a plate". To automatically categorize someone is not fair. People who may ask a "stupid" question may be ready to put in the effort they just don't know how to ask, or even where to look.
| Craig Fortune (Aug 30, 2004 at 21:24 GMT) |
I'm going to leave this thread now as you've proved to be completely mind numbingly stupid as you still harp on about the whole question asking thing. Its not just about that. Its that part that you dont understand. You have many opinions about a situation you know nothing about as you haven't been here to see it.
So go away until you do understand, heck, email me when you do understand. I'm serious, email me when you think you REALLY understand whats going on. Then I'll stop belittling your opinions that have no weight of experience in this situation.
| James Griggs (Aug 30, 2004 at 21:50 GMT) |
Quote:
I never asked for direction when coming to GG at first
Maybe YOU didn't. Everyone is not YOU. If someone doesn't follow YOUR course of learning is that when you get angry? I sincerely thank you for that quote. I could not have had a better illustration of how it all comes down to ego.
Actually I take that back and thank you for this one even more.
Quote:LOL...lol...LOL
I can prove this
LOL...Who gives a flying turd whether or not you can prove you never needed direction when coming to GG....LOL.
You do not truly know my experience in anything. But, I can see you don't know how to make a point without resorting to name calling.
So you agree with me, everyone is not a 1 or a 0, you apparently weren't.
It's been a fun battle Craig maybe oneday we'll have a discussion about something we agree about.
| Tom Bampton (Aug 30, 2004 at 22:12 GMT) |
You entered this thread with a post that immediately got peoples backs up, a theme which seems to of continued throughout all your posts. Craig and David clearly disagreed, but that did not descend into a stupid and pointless argument, because neither descended into personal attacks, something that you were quick to do.
You have come barging into a community that you do not know anything about with an agressive attitude, and that wont wash with people here. If you want to get anything out of this community, an attitude adjustment is in order.
I'm sorry if you feel that this is another personal attack because it's really not meant to be. I'm just telling it how it is.
T.
| James Griggs (Aug 30, 2004 at 22:21 GMT) |
[/quote]you
| Tom Bampton (Aug 30, 2004 at 22:26 GMT) |
I suggest you stop this now before you dig yourself into an even deeper hole.
T.
| James Griggs (Aug 31, 2004 at 01:40 GMT) |
Please explain to me this hole?
| Luke D (Aug 31, 2004 at 02:13 GMT) Resource Rating: 5 |
Come on guys, lets put this to rest. The original spirit of the .plan has been clubbed to death, buried six feet down, has thoroughly decomposed and is being used by a potted daffodil for fertilizer. Don't we all have better things to do?
| Joe Maruschak (Aug 31, 2004 at 03:13 GMT) |
The point, as I took it, was that those new to the community should attempt to try to find a way to fit into it, not try to bend it to the way they want it to be.
I see both points of view expressed here.
I know for a fact that those speakign in favor of Phil's point of view have at times gone out of their way to help newbies. We are accepting of those that want to join the community.
What we don't want to accept is those that abuse everyone.
I have, and this is no exxageration, had someone new to the community email me and call me an asshole because he could not do something I could. I tried to help him on irc, I had to go read my daughter a bedtime story, and when I get back to the computer, I get an email about how , quote :
"You are such a fucking asshole for not finishing helping me fix my model."
This is not an artist .vs programemrs or newbs .vs oldtimers stance.. this is an issue of behavior, or a feeling of entitlement, and or common decency. As of the last six months, the 'greifer' noise ratio has grown drastically, and although it is I expect inevitable that this will happen, we still speak out against it, becasue we care about this community and we don't want to see a subtle erosion of the spirit of the community.
This community is by far the most accepting of newcomers than any online community I have ever took part in. In terms of programmers and artist co-exisiting in a respectful environment, this is the best I have seen.
We do want to see new blood. at least I do. I do want to see modders moving over from making MODs that they cannot sell (and instead make money for the peopel that made the moddable game).. I want to see them come and learn and contribute in a positive fashion.
I do not want to see more of the 'my shit does not stink because I made a MOD and TGE is nto as good as unreal ed because I am an EPIC fanboy please kiss my ass" attutude.
We are not railing agaisnt the n00b. We ARE upset by the ' I don't have time to read the docs tell me what I need to know now' attitude. It is not about what one does or does not know.. it is not about how new or how old one is.. it is all about the attitude, which many of us are getting a little sick of.
And again, it is not the 'newness' of the individual that is the issue, it is the atitude of entitlement to my time that bothers me.
but, I have to agree that this thread had gone on long enough and it should be put to rest. I see Craig's point of view clearly, and although I don't agree with his presentation, I respect the passion and I understand the sentiment.
James, I also understand his point of view, but I don't think he quite understands the issue, as he is new to the community, and I for one will not fault him for it. I will comment to say that he is probably not doing himslef a favor if he wants to be a part of a community by continuing to post (kind of re-iterating Tom's statement).. not a threat... just a fact of life. continuing to post will only continue to annoy those that actually are making a positive contribution and ARE willing to help. You may need their help someday, better to not burn a bridge (take or leave the advice if you wish)
| James Griggs (Aug 31, 2004 at 03:22 GMT) |
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